Hi all, I have been lurking on this forum for several months now as I have learned to brew (you guys are great teachers!). To date I have made three extract/specialty grain batches and then moved on to complete two all grain batches. All turned out very well (the all grain batches far surpassed my highest expectations). I am now hooked on the quality of home brewing.

My most recent all grain brew turned out great but there is just a tad bit of sweetness to it that I would tone down the next time I brew it. Trouble is, I am not sure where the sweetness is coming from. So I am hopeful one of you will tell me which ingredient to reduce.

It was a custom scotch ale (a varient from a Scottish Lockdown Ale).

Included: 12 pounds of 2 row; 1 pount of C120; half pound of C40, half pound of Pale Chocolate; and 1 pound of brown sugar.

My mash was kept at a constant 154 degrees for an hour, and then I batch sparged with 170 degree water to get my remaining volume.

It turned out wonderful. If you know which of my ingredients really might add more sweetness than the others, let me know.

Thanks for the help.

Randy

I don't think your grain bill is the issue here. If you make this beer again, try mashing at 150 degrees for 75 minutes. Even though it's considered a 'light body' mash, the beer should have plenty of body due to the large-ish quantity of grain in the mash, and the pound and a half of crystal malts. The lower mash temp should help to dry out the beer some, without changing the overall flavor noticeably.

Thanks. I will try the lower temperature. I appreciate the advice.

Randy

Crystal malt will also impart a residual sweetness to the finished beer.

To tell the truth, I suspect the amount of crystal you used probably had a greater contribution to the sweetness of your Scotch Ale than your mashing temperature.

If I am making an extract beer I will use an entire pound of crystal malt but with respect to all grain brewing I rarely use more than 1/2 pound.

For your recipe I'd probably cut the amount of crystal used to as much as one half (i.e. 1/2 lb of the 120 °L Crystal and 1/4 lb of the 40 °L Crystal).

If you are worried about a loss of body or mouth-feel simply add a pound of Munich malt to the grain bill. Munich malt is great for adding body to a beer.

Of course, in addition to the above lowering your mashing temperature a bit also wouldn't hurt.

Just my two cents worth.

- Scott

Let me explain my previous response a little bit. I should have asked for more information before I responded, but I made a few assumptions. Perhaps my assumptions were incorrect.

First off, I assumed you were brewing a 5 gallon batch of beer, and that your extract efficiency is about 70-75%. Given that, your Original Gravity would have been in the neighborhood of 1.080 with the brown sugar added.

Next, I assumed that you enjoyed the taste of your recipe, and only wanted to make it a little less sweet. Not change the overall flavor.

Now, given that these assumptions are correct, I would choose first to lower the mash temp to try to dry the beer out. Yes caramel malts do add sweetness to your beer, but if you cut your caramel malts in half you will definitely change the flavor of your beer. If you're okay with that, then by all means cut the caramel malts first. That will certainly help.
However, I don't believe that the sweetness of your beer is coming solely from the caramel malts. You have a relatively large beer in this recipe (if my assumptions are correct), and a mash temp of 154 degrees will leave a high gravity beer with a goodly amount of residual sugars that won't get fermented. If you include the unfermentable sugars from the caramel malts in the recipe, you end up with a very malty sweet beer. Decreasing the caramel malts will decrease the residual sugar level. Decreasing the mash temp in the 148-150 degree range will decrease the residual sugar level. Decreasing the amount of base malt (all other things being equal) will decrease the residual sugar level. Of all of these fixes, cutting the caramel malts in half will have the most noticeable effect on the character of your beer.

Again, if you're okay with that, then by all means do it. In the end, you may have to cut the amount of crystal malt in the recipe anyway if you're still unhappy with it later. The choice is yours.

If you're unwilling to go that route to begin with, then my suggestion would be to lower your mash temp and possibly reduce your base malt by a pound or so. That should help to reduce the maltiness a bit. It won't be a tremendous difference, but you did say it was only a 'tad bit of sweetness'.

Now, to muddle things further...

What type of yeast were you using, and what were the pitching conditions? Did you make a starter? How long was the lag time, and was the ferment strong? Did you aerate your wort?

Pitching an adequate amount of healthy yeast into properly aerated wort is pretty crucial when fermenting higher gravity beers. If your yeast weren't adequately healthy, or if you under pitched or didn't aerate enough, it's possible for your ferment to stall a few points higher than what would otherwise have been possible.

Also, keep in mind that yeast strain makes a big difference in how your beer finishes. To reduce sweetness, you'll want to chose a yeast strain that attenuates well.

That's my 2 cents worth. Whatever you decide to do, let us know how it turns out. I hope everything works out for ya!

We are going to have to agree to disagree.

I believe reducing the mashing temperature will help but I suspect the sweetness will still be there.

Thinking about the grain bill a bit more I would say that the darker of the two crystal malts (i.e. the 120 °L Crystal) will likely have the greatest flavor contribution. The 40 °L contributes primarily sweetness and some color. Rather than cut the entire amount of crystal in half you might consider just dropping the 40 °L Crystal and keeping the amount of 120 °L Crystal as is. This should reduce the sweetness while minimizing the change in the overall flavor of the beer.

I'm still concerned that this may result in too much sweetnesss. I mean, one pound of crystal is still quite bit. At any rate, as you dial in your recipe you may wish to reduce this amount at some point if subsequent batches are still a bit on the sweet side. That is assuming, of course, that you have tried mashing at a lower temperature etc.

GuitarLord makes a good point regarding the fermentation. What was your original gravity and what sort of final gravity did you end up with? The sweetness could be the result of an incomplete fermentation. With some strong beers such as Scotch Ales and Barleywines one sometimes has to rouse the yeast from time to time to get the fermentation to progress down to where is should be.

Okay, it looks like I am up to four cents now.

- Scott

Thanks so much for the feedback. You both have given me a lot to think about.

Dave -- your assumptions were 100% correct (5 gal batch, new and active yeast, good areated(sp?) wort, primary fermentation active for about 6-7 days, transfered to secondary carboy for another 7 days, and that I really like the beer the way it is -- just wanted to tone down the sweetness).

I wish I could give you the original and ending gravity, but I dropped (and broke) my hydrometer while I was heating the wort and was unable to measure this batch.

I will ponder all the suggestions and let you know how my next batch turns out.

There is so much to learn about this craft -- will I be able to drink that much beer (I am smiling here...)?

thanks again.

Randy

Randy wrote:There is so much to learn about this craft -- will I be able to drink that much beer (I am smiling here...)?

If not, I'm always willing to lend a hand! (I am smiling here too...)