penguinfogel wrote: Also tis a work night for me too.Apparently the industry I work in doesn't understand typical weekends either

Why can't we all be bankers!

So, Curlyfat, did you ever get around to trying the 'all grain steep' project? I've been wanting to make a semi clone of Fat Tire for a long time, but I'm not gonna put 1/2 lb of Chocolate Malt into it, for sure! Beersmith is usually pretty close to accurate colorwise for my beers, and this all grain would come in around 21 SRM, which is about 10 SRM higher than it should be. I don't find that there's a huge difference in color between a 45 minute mash vs. a 60 minute mash on my system, so I don't think that is the issue.
Also, tasting Fat Tire, I don't think there are that many specialty malts in it either.

I'm planning on trying a very simple all grain Fat Tire-ish beer soon. The grain bill so far is looking like this:

Rotund Roller
American Amber Ale

Type All Grain
Batch Size 5.50 Gallons
Boil Size 7.00 Gallons
Boil Time 60 Minutes
Brewhouse Efficiency 70%

Amount Item
9.00 lbs 2-Row Pale Malt (2.0 SRM)
2.00 lbs Weyermann Cara Amber (30.0 SRM)
0.50 lbs Caramunich I (45.0 SRM)
1.00 oz Hallertauer [4.20%] (60 minute) First Wort Hop 13.6 IBU
0.25 oz Hallertauer [4.20%] (20 minutes) 2.1 IBU

Orig. Gravity Estimate 1.053
Estimated ABV 5%
Estimated Bitterness 15.7 IBU
Estimated Color 10.9 SRM
Mash Type Single Infusion, Medium Body
Mash In Add 3.59 gal of water at 166 degrees (60 min) Step Temp 154 degrees
Mash Out Add 2.00 gal of water at 197 degrees (10 min) Step Temp 168 degrees

I'm happy to hear any thoughts/critiques on it before I give it a try.
FWIW, Cara Amber is just a trademark name, and is not really a caramel malt. It's a roasted, Victory/Biscuit type malt. I figured that using it, vs home toasted malt, would make for a much more repeatable beer, which is really what I'm shooting for.

Cheers,
Dave

Your recipe looks pretty good. I think the original one over complicated things. I will say the taste was pretty close, outside of the slight hint of chocolate.

I'd love to see how it turns out for you. My mash system is tied up for the rest of the summer (my family has started "commissioning" beer for all their events).

The extract recipe does seem to be a little complex, but it probably translates very well for extract brewers. The biggest problem I see with it (for all grain brewers) is the very dark color from the chocolate malt. I live is South Louisiana, and it's hard to get my people to try a beer that is very dark, regardless of how it tastes. I'd like to make a reasonable facsimile of Fat Tire, in taste, bitterness, and color. I think it'd be a big hit with my BMC drinking people.

I don't think my recipe will be bready/toasty enough. The Cara Amber malt seems to be pretty subtle, and it probably won't be robust enough to carry through in either aroma or flavor. We'll see. If not, I'll probably try some Special Roast malt in the next batch. I've seen it described as "Victory Malt on Steroids".

What do you think of Safale S-04 for the yeast?

I'd be very interested in hearing any advice you have, seeing as how you've already brewed this recipe. You've got one up on me!

Cheers,
Dave

I used WYeast 1492 (Fat Tire yeast, available for a brief time) in mine, I don't have any experience with S-04, although I've used US-05 several times.

The next time i do this one I plan to use a hefty dose of home-toasted malt. I just haven't found any other malt that imparts toastiness as well as freshly toasted malt. That flavor is very prominent in Fat Tire. I will say, however, that Belgium Biscuit malt imparts a great toasty flavor as well..

Well, I went ahead and brewed this one. Here's the final recipe:

3.5 lbs Pale Malt (1.4 SRM)
4.5 lbs Pilsner Malt (1.8 SRM)
1.0 lbs Vienna Malt (3.8 SRM)
2.0 lbs Cara Amber (30 SRM)
0.5 lbs Cara Munich I (45 SRM)
1.0 oz Hallertauer Leaf Hops (4.2 % AA) First Wort Hop
.25 oz Hallertauer Leaf Hops (4.2 % AA) 20 minutes
1 tsp Irish Moss (20 minutes)

This brew day ended up being one big lesson in things I should NOT do!
First off, I opened my tub of Pale malt, and realized it was nearly empty. "No Worries!" I think, "I've got some Pilsner malt left." Open the tub up, and I'm nearly empty there too! So, I put the two together, and I'm still 1 lb short of base malt to make the beer. Well, I've got a tub of Vienna and a tub of Munich, so I decided to use the malt that will give the least amount of color. I input all this into Beersmith, and I still hit 10.9 SRM! Awesome!
I decide to do my water salt additions next. Did I mention that I've never done salt additions before? I break out my trusty, handy pocket scale, and set it to grams, instead of ounces. Or so I thought. I do all my salt additions, and I'm AMAZED at how little salt goes into a gram! Once I'm done with the brew day, I realized that my handy dandy little pocket scale doesn't just measure ounces and grams. Apparently, it also measures grains. A grain is about 1/15th of a gram. Heh, live and learn!
Then, I decide that, instead of using my tried and true blue Gott cooler mash tun, I'm going to instead use the untried, untrue 48 qt. ice chest mash tun that I finished building a couple days ago. "What could go wrong?", says I.
Looking at the new tun, I decide that it's the perfect vessel for decoction mashing. It looks really easy to stir up, and pull grain from. Decoction mashing has never really worked well for me though. It always makes my mash efficiency plummet! So, why not try a decoction mash on a recipe I've never made before! Great Idea! What Could Go Wrong!
To make a long story long, I ended up with a mash efficiency of about 53%, which is far and away the worst I've ever had. Instead of topping up to 5.5 gallons, I only topped up to 4.25, in order to maintain my OG. Of course, this overshot my color and IBU's a little, but really not by much.

I'm saying all this with a smile, because I really really enjoyed this brew day. Poor efficiency and bad decisions aside, it was all great fun. Decoction mashing is messy, difficult, tedious, and an absolute blast! I just wish I knew how to do it correctly, so that my mash efficiency didn't go to pot.

It would be about my luck if this beer ends up tasting JUST like Fat Tire, because there's no way I could recreate it!

Cheers,
Dave

Some of my best creations have been the result of brew-days just like this! I've done decotion twice (both for the same recipe, the first one was ruined before fermenting...don't ask). It was a pain in the a**, took forever, and was a ton of fun. The result was an absolutely gloriously malt-heavy octoberfest.

My guess is your "inspiration" to decoct was genius. Despite your low yield, decoction offers a very malty end result which might be paramount here.

Keep us up to date on this one!

Overall, I wasn't very impressed with the results of this recipe. The final beer just doesn't have that definite 'bread crust' flavor that fat tire has. I won't fault the recipe entirely though. I recalibrated my thermometer after this brew and found that it was reading about 6 degrees higher than actual temp. This means that instead of ending up with a medium bodied beer, I instead have a very light bodied beer. The caraamber malt doesn't show up very well in the flavor or aroma.

I'll try to do another clone-ish brew again after I get a few pounds of Special Roast malt.

dave, this is my try at a fat tire clone. turned out pretty good and my brew bud said i hit it pretty close.
10 gal. batch
11 lb. US 2row (2.0 srm)
2 lb. crystal- 60l (60.0 srm)
2lb. munic malt (9.0 srm)
1lb. biscuit malt (23.0 srm)
1lb. cara-pils (2.0 srm)
2tsp. ph 5.2 stabilizer ( mash 60 min. 154 deg.)
1oz. northern brewer hops (8.5%) 60 min.
2 tab. whirlflock tablet (15 min. boil)
1oz. fuggles (4.5%) 5min.
2 pkg. safale S-04 (65 deg. 2wks.)
this was a batch sparge, i have never tried a decotion before, afraid i would mess things all up.
gary

Okay, I just placed an order with Northern Brewer for specialty malts, and with my LHBS for Maris Otter.

Here's what I've got coming:
10 lbs Maris Otter (4°L)
2 lbs Belgian Biscuit malt (24.5°L)
2 lbs Briess Victory (28°L)
2 lbs Briess Special Roast (50°L)
1 lb Crisp Amber Malt (7°L)

I chose the Maris Otter because it's a base malt that's supposed to have a bready/biscuity flavor. I know that Biscuit malt and Victory malt are supposed to be the same, or at least extremely similar, but I figured I'd get both anyway. Here's what NB says about these malts:
Maris Otter - Rich, slightly nutty flavor. Excellent for any English beer style
Special Roast - Contributes deep golden to brown color and toasty, biscuity, sour, and tangy flavors.
Biscuit - Toasted malt with a warm bread or biscuit flavor and aroma and will lend a garnet-brown color.
Victory - Gives gold to light brown color and a toasty, bread-like malt flavor.
Crisp Amber - Warm, pleasant, biscuit flavor with coffee undertones. Must be mashed - try in nut brown ale, red ale, and porter

I also have available:
CaraMunich I (45L) - A medium crystal malt with deep gold to pale copper color and sweet malty flavor and aroma.
Chocolate Malt (400L) - Provides color and flavor for a wide variety of dark beer styles.
Vienna Malt (3.8L) - Lager malt kilned to a slightly darker color than Pilsner malt. Use up to 30% in a pale beer to achieve a dry, slightly toasty malt flavor.
Munich Malt (8.3L) - High-kilned lager malt with intense malt flavor and amber color.

I figure on using the CaraMunich, but not the chocolate.

I'm going to use a regular ole glass mercury thermometer this time, so that I don't have any problems with temperature accuracy. I also plan on doing a regular ole single infusion mash.

I figure the final beer should end with a SRM of 10-13 and a final IBU of 15-25, give or take. I'll be using Hallertau (4.2%) and Tettnanger (5.5%) hops, because they're what I have handy. I also have Amarillo, but I wouldn't want to put such an overpowering hop into this beer.

So, anybody want to collaborate on a recipe? If so, post up your most inspired recipe for this 'clone'!

BTW, thanks for the recipe Shineman! I'm glad you've had good success with this!

You can be sure that I'll be looking at your recipe, and any other tried recipes, very closely before trying my next batch. As I've said though, I'm not really looking to make a Fat Tire clone, so much as a (hopefully) even better tasting beer 'in the style of' Fat Tire.

Please take a look at the ingredients I have available, and give me any insights you might have!

Here's my most recent recipe.
Big Wheel
5 Gallons
61% Efficiency
Grain Bill
9.00 lbs Maris Otter (1.6 SRM)
2.00 lbs Belgian Biscuit Malt (24.5 SRM)
0.50 lbs Special Roast Malt (50 SRM)
0.25 lbs CaraMunich I (45 SRM)
Hops
1.5 oz Hallertauer [4.2% AA] 60 minutes - (20.4 IBU)
.25 oz Hallertauer [4.2% AA] 20 minutes - (2.3 IBU)

Original Gravity: 1.054
Final Gravity: Heh, I don't check that unless there's a problem!
Estimated Color: 11.6 SRM
Estimated Bitterness: 23 IBUs

I just finished racking it to the keg today. I gotta say, the taste is close to Fat Tire. I find that with Fat Tire, the biscuity taste is subdued. With this beer, it's much more in your face. Also, the Special Roast malt changes the TYPE of biscuity flavor that I'm getting. I think I taste a bit of coffee in the flavor too. I'll tell you more once it's carbed and in the glass.

After this recipe, I'm starting to believe that the Fat Tire grain bill is simply Pale Malt, maybe a bit of Munich, a couple pounds of Biscuit malt, and crystal malt for color. Gary's recipe is looking pretty good right about now. I think I'd add more biscuit malt to it, and use US-05 instead of S-04, but I think that it's probably pretty darn close.

I may try to make a spot on clone down the road, but I think I'll be pretty happy with this beer. The one thing that I didn't like about Fat Tire was that it was too subtle. This beer isn't quite as subtle, and I like that. Hopefully the carbonation won't screw with the flavor too much.

(Warning: Thread Resurrection Commencing!)

I'm just wondering if anyone else experiences a large variance in the flavor of Fat Tire from one 6 pack to another? Fat Tire is not distributed where I live, and as such I'm only able to get Fat Tire when I visit relatives in Texas. I'll give a slight synopsis of the last three 6 packs of Fat Tire I purchased. Two of the 6 packs were purchased and consumed on the same day. The third was purchased and consumed about 3 months earlier.

1st sixer - Fat Tire, Standard Design Carton - Taste: Very subdued biscuit malt, almost not there. Slight caramel. Nice hop component in flavor and aroma. Balanced more toward hops than malt, though not hoppy, in the sense of an APA or the like. Extremely boring!

2nd sixer - Fat Tire, Winter Design - Taste: More biscuit malt than before, but subdued as well. Slight caramel. Nice hop component in flavor and aroma. Balanced more toward hops than malt, though not hoppy in the sense of an APA or the like. Not a whole lot of malty flavor, though some. Slightly less boring, though not terribly exciting. This is the taste that I have come to associate with Fat Tire over the years. Incredibly easy to drink, with a subtle biscuity flavor.

3rd sixer - Fat Tire, Standard Design Carton (purchased in Galveston; The other two sixers were purchased in Porter) - Taste: Wow! VERY biscuity malt/roasty, almost chocolate when combined with the caramel malt. Hop component is there, but extremely balanced with the overall beer in both aroma and flavor. This beer was EXCITING and TASTY! I could understand why people would put chocolate malt in a clone recipe after tasting this beer, where I could never understand that before.

With this sort of variation from batch to batch, it's no wonder homebrew clone recipes are all over the place in their formulations. These beers were different enough that they could have had different labels on them.

So, now that I've tasted a truly wonderful Fat Tire, and New Belgium has been kind enough to list the ingredients in this beer:
http://www.newbelgium.com/beer/detail.a ... 6256a7b0ee
I figured I'd give this clone thing a shot. Here's my recipe. You'll notice that there's a few ingredient substitutions from what New Belgium listed. Namely, Biscuit Malt instead of Victory and only Willamette hops (Fat Tire also using Goldings and Target). Biscuit Malt is extremely close in flavor to Victory malt. While there's some subtle differences, it shouldn't be anything dramatic. As for the hops, well I used what I had, and this beer isn't hoppy enough that I think an all Willamette brew will change the flavor dramatically.

Recipe for 5.5 gallons:

Grain
7 lbs Pale Malt (2 SRM)
2 lbs Dark Munich (10 SRM)
1 lbs Biscuit Malt (25 SRM)
.5 lbs Crystal 80 (75 SRM)

Hops
.7 oz Willamette [4.70%] 60 mins
.6 oz Willamette [4.70%] 15 mins
.7 oz Willamette [4.70%] 5 mins

Yeast
1 vial WLP051 California Ale V

Infusion Step - 152 degrees for 60 minutes
Decoction Step - 158 degrees for 20 minutes

OG - 1.056 (About 6 points higher than Fat Tire, but I like a little xtra kick)
FG - TBD
Estimated Color - 10.6 SRM (Probably pretty close to the real deal)
Estimated IBUs - 18.5 (Exactly as Fat Tire.)

I fermented for 3 weeks at 64 degrees. I'm currently cold conditioning at 35 degrees until I get home from work. Then it's keg and taste time!

Note that this grain bill is surprisingly close to Shineman's recipe above.
Mine has a bit more biscuit malt and a bit less caramel malt, and the caramel malt is of a slightly higher color. Still, extremely close!

(Thread resurrection complete.)

(The thread that wouldn't die?)

Waiting patiently for the results of your brew... I've never tried Fat Tire but would like to take a shot at brewing it.

Looking at my tasting notes, I'd say that I still have a bit of tweaking to do in order to nail that really great Fat Tire.

First of all, I overshot my mash temp and mashed at 154 degrees. That coupled with the yeast choice created a sweeter beer than I would have liked. The toasty notes that I was expecting are not quite there either. The hops flavors and aroma are a bit subdued as well. Here's how my next attempt will look.

6.5 lbs Pale
2 lbs Biscuit/Victory Malt
1 lb Munich
.3 lbs Caramel 80

.5 oz Styrian Goldings (4.70 AA) 60 mins
1.25 oz Styrian Goldings (4.70 AA) 20 mins
.5 oz Styrian Goldings (4.70 AA) 5 mins

Single Infusion Mash at 150 for 60 minutes. No mash out.
Pitch starter of WLP051. Ferment at 64 degrees F.

The first beer tasted decent enough, but really fell short of that really great tasting Fat Tire. I might try to get some Victory malt next time, instead of the biscuit. And with the low-ish IBUs of this beer, I think it's very important to get the residual sweetness lower than what this beer accomplished. The lower mash temp and the lower quantity of caramel malt should help to dry the beer out some.

I'd say that if you're really interested in brewing a Fat Tire clone, pass this one by. It's just not quite there yet.